Live!!

[windsofwar]

Who: resident dragon man and you
Where: Lobby
When: 184 morning

Good morning, everyone! I've decided now is the best time for us all to have another debate, now that our guests have been excused.

As many of you know, most of those guests were like me. Damned from other shows, instructed to take part in the show to make it more entertaining. During the week, we all saw and did many things, and hopefully, no one is holding much of a grudge.

Especially toward Future is Now, because I offered to murder, but they refused, and tried to protect as many people as possible, and we still were victorious, some how. So they should be applauded!

That aside, there was also that. . .live. As someone who has also stabbed a child, it made me think. How exactly do I want to reach my goals, and what should I sacrifice to get there? Personally, I don't think my stance has changed much, but we definitely shouldn't stab children. Only deimos! So I apologize for my brash actions from before.

So my question for the rest of you, even though violence can't be completely avoided here, when is it an appropriate first choice of action? I imagine many of you may have had to make extremely hard calls this week, so I have to wonder. Please discuss.

Comments

[worthathousand]

I already told you that what you think I wanted is very different from what I have believed of the grey plague. I will keep your world's version of the afterlife in mind, but don't accuse me of desiring something I never conceived of.

As for what I think:
Do you need to hear me say that I am angry, and that it makes me even more angry that we have so few solutions available to us?
What I think is that everyone should be able to see that some things are wrong, and that to do nothing about them makes us likewise accountable. If you can come up with a better way to to prevent those wrongs, then I am being honest when I say that I would like to hear of it.

[rollplayinghouse]

I'm not talking about "my world's version of the afterlife." As far as I was concerned, there was no afterlife. When I killed people the best I could offer was a quick death and nothing after that. That's still better than the gray disease.

And I plan to start by talking to them, after they get back from Lilith. A step you skipped right over.

[worthathousand]

Should I have politely asked them to not kill children while Amy took the saw to Eclipse's neck?

Requiem and I may have disagreed on many things, but she wasn't trying to lie to herself that they're the kind to be won over with words alone.

I genuinely hope that your efforts make a difference. But it took more than pleasant conversation to convince Kharg, and he seemingly has a selfless heart.

[rollplayinghouse]

What exactly are you imagining? Obviously I'm not just going to ask them politely to be nicer. I doubt the conversation is going to be pleasant.

But I've stopped God from doing things before. Her motivations are shallow, so she's pretty easily swayed, actually. You don't have to magically make them into good, selfless people to prevent them from murdering people.

[worthathousand]

[ a heavy sigh, and she finally breaks eye contact to drag a hand through her hair again ]

I was just... irritated—that you seemed to be suggesting I should have tried negotiation before joining Heart Soldier in dealing with them both directly.

In the end, these are people who I would have supported being put to death, were we in my home. For that reason and no other did I come to Requiem with what I knew was an extreme suggestion.
But... as I've said, I still want what you are planning to work. Just because I believe that units are responsible for the actions of our own doesn't mean I relish the prospect of cruelty, much less think it should be the only option.

[rollplayinghouse]

I didn't say that. I don't have any issues with what Heart Soldier did. It was an urgent situation, and they took equivalent revenge for what they did. That's different. Now the basic things are settled, and we can figure out what to do, and you jumped right to a punishment way worse than the crime.

And that's exactly it. It was just your opinion, which no one asked you for. But you're so convinced your opinion is important and correct that you pushed for it, despite it being extreme. Isn't that basically the definition of being self-righteous?

[worthathousand]

I didn't push. I asked. And then explained my reasoning, including why I believed it was a punishment worth considering.

I'm not sure I believe it so firmly, now, based on what you and Requiem have said. And I apologize if my intent appeared otherwise.
But I will not apologize to you for the sin of believing in my own principles.

[rollplayinghouse]

You "asked" Requiem to lock them out of the dorm forever before their bodies were even cold. Or, would have been cold if there was anything left of them. That's not a casual request. And it was none of your business to start with.

I'm not asking you to apologize. I don't really care about making nice with you. But if you're expecting me to concede that you made a perfectly reasonable and principled suggestion, you're out of luck. I think you have self-centered delusions of righteousness that mean you'll feel perfectly justified in taking horrible actions as long as they're "principled," and you're just confirming that with everything you say. And I plan to treat you like you pose all the danger that implies.

[worthathousand]

[ she straightens, lips thinning a moment ]

You still like to make threats, I see. If you really weren't interested in doing anything except delivering one, then you might as well have done so from the start—you started this conversation, not me.

Really— "none of my business" that a child was killed? Only ZRAEL gets to have an opinion on that? And you want to call me self-centered. I actually was interested in the chance to mend some of this conflict, but I guess that's just my own little "delusion."

[rollplayinghouse]

It's none of your business whether we decide to force our unitmates out of our dorm for weeks until they lose themselves! Do you not even see that's the problem?! Someone got hurt, so it's perfectly reasonable for you to go tell other people what you think they should do in their own homes, even if it means you're telling them to perform a dedicated campaign to literally erase one of the few people they're meant to count on from existence in the most agonizing way possible?

The fact that you think anything is your business if there's a "right thing to do" is the dangerous part. If you want to interpret that as a threat, interpret it as a threat. I'm just telling you how I see it, so we're clear. Unlike you, I don't decide how things are without even speaking to the people involved.

[worthathousand]

[ pinching the bridge of her nose before speaking ]

You might be speaking with me, but you're really not listening.
I told you already that, when I made that proposal, I saw it as advocating for what was, essentially, natural death—like going to Lethe—not the torture and complete erasure of the soul that you describe. And, even though there is no proof that your view of it is correct, I'm still willing to take it extremely seriously. But that is not good enough.

I came to Requiem as a friend, and backed off in the same conversation. I'm glad that she took it seriously enough to indeed bring it up with the rest of you, but from the start I understood you were more likely to prefer your own version of justice. But that is not good enough.

At the end of the day, your problem with me seemingly comes down to the fact that I have morals at all.

[rollplayinghouse]

There's plenty of proof that my view of it is correct. I experienced that torture firsthand. We know turning gray turns you into a Damned, which means you live in Hell as a formless shadow with no identity. People have seen them. The rest of Hell that isn't Liar or Vengeance Hell is apparently full of them. We know all that.

And you can have whatever morals you want. But no one put you in charge. You don't get to decide the right thing to do for other people.

[worthathousand]

I swear I am not trying to decide. As you pointed out earlier, it is true that i am angry, and I am tired of how no lasting change seems to happen when someone commits even the foulest act. And hence I am to the point of considering extremes.

But I do not claim it is my decision alone—nor would I wish it to be.

...As for the Damned... [ softer, more thinking aloud than anything ]
We know they can come back from it—LiliS is not the only unit to have had members of that kind. They aren't gone... but perhaps they have been trapped. And that's surely cruel and unnatural, too.

[rollplayinghouse]

We also don't know that anyone who recovered was actually a complete shadow like that. They've been gray, or they've lost things... Some of them permanently replaced. That's apparently why people end up with wings or scales or whatever, to patch over whatever's missing, right? If someone really lost everything I don't know that they'd be able to come back.

[worthathousand]

Perhaps not.
At that point, though, they're not really meant to—applying Creation's understanding of death, that is. But even then, it's true that they don't seem to reincarnate, or move on in any way. That is the part which, I must concede, concerns even me.

[rollplayinghouse]

[...]

Well, maybe next time don't suggest something like that if even you have concerns.

[worthathousand]

It is not that I did not already consider it an extreme measure, but—

I'm just thinking about it in more detail now, and more critically. It is not often that you learn that even an experience as universal as death isn't necessarily the same across worlds.

It would be worth considering, regardless, as part of trying to understand this place, but to be very frank I am also critiquing my own view as a gesture of good faith.

[rollplayinghouse]

So without me challenging you on it. you wouldn't consider it critically before going forward with it?

[worthathousand]

I'm not that rash, but no, I really didn't think "how death works" was subject to debate, so that wasn't the part of the idea I'd been questioning.

I've actually been thinking about it as an option for some time now. Asking myself what I would do if someone I knew became truly and irredeemably dangerous.

[rollplayinghouse]

You realize that makes it sound like you were just looking for an opportunity, right? You figured out a punishment that would make you feel like you were actually doing something useful, and then the moment someone did something really bad where you saw them, they suddenly couldn't be stopped by any other method and had to be removed immediately.

[worthathousand]

Ah, no, it doesn't sound like that at all, unless you're absolutely determined to interpret it that way.

It's really no business of yours, but the first time I brought it up was in speaking to a friend from my own world, as an option in the instance that she returned to the state she showed in some of her memories—because that would be a deadly serious situation, and this would have been a deadly serious option.

Unfortunately for all of us, that murder was not nearly so unique as to qualify as the only awful thing any of us have seen since Doll killed Shu all those seasons ago, only to revive harmlessly when her team won a game.

[rollplayinghouse]

Oh? Then there's been a time when someone did something awful and you thought "well, they might be redeemable, so that option's not appropriate this time?"

[worthathousand]

Not in so many words. And I'm less concerned with whether someone can be redeemed than whether they're an active danger.

Doodleman, for example: He is dangerous, but in the way that a storm at sea is dangerous. It is his nature, and proper precautions can be taken to anticipate and avoid that part of him. It makes a difference, too, that it is clear how much he cares for others.

I can give you more examples if you wish. Perhaps even tell you what it was like to care for Dahlia.

[rollplayinghouse]

You're the one who used the phrase "truly and irredeemably dangerous."

I don't disagree that she doesn't care as much, but God is just as predictable as Doodle. Maybe more so. Again, why do you think your judgment on who's actively dangerous is better than anyone else's?

[worthathousand]

I don't.

I trust my instincts, but even if I wanted to try to play lawgiver in that way, it wouldn't matter. By its very nature, choosing to permanently lock someone out is a decision that only their unitmates can make—and it would have to be completely unanimous even then.

So, in that regard, the fact that you think God can be controlled is alone enough to save her.